Explaining to Relatives Why You Reject Christianity

EXPLAINING to RELATIVES WHY YOU REJECT CHRISTIANITY

Introduction – How do you get your relatives to leave you alone, about religion? You could make snarky comments all the time. You could try that… but I don’t think that will work. It just keeps everything festering. I think the best way… is to sit down with them and discuss the issues… with kindness, and respect. [The Bible advises Christians to LIKEWISE defend their beliefs, “with gentleness and respect.” (1 Pet 3:15)]
Now, that may be very difficult to do. The whole thing might be too emotionally charged for everyone concerned. So… I think… a very good alternative… would be to say to them, “Well, if you want to know why I am not a Christian… just… watch this video. It gives all the key, common-sense reasons why I reject Christianity.”
That way, you don’t have to deal with volatile emotions. I am not saying the chances of your converting them out of Christianity are good, but at least they’ll see that you have solid REASONS for rejecting Christianity, and, they might to ease up on their… proselytizing.
Let’s say, hypothetically, that I have an uncle… Mark, who is a faithful Christian. And we’ve always gotten along fine, but, we’ve always disagreed about religion. Here is how I imagine a frank discussion would unfold between us.
After a lifetime of debating Christians, I find THESE…. are the issues:

  1. MALE CHAUVINISM

Mick, you sure you don’t want to come to our service this Sunday? I think If you looked into Christianity more, you’d find it really… is… the truth.

Well, Uncle Mark, I have looked into it, very carefully. And, sure, there’s lots of good things about Christianity, but I’ve come to the conclusion that, as a belief system, it is… NOT the truth.

Why do you think that? Give me some reasons.

OK… I can give you… ten big reasons… each of which, just by itself, is enough to make me reject Christianity.

OK, like what?

Alright, uh, male chauvinism. Wouldn’t you say that a true religion must regard men and women of equal value?

Yes, I would… and Christianity does. Genesis 1:27 says, "In the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

That’s a nice general idea, that passage, but it contradicts other passages that say they are not equal. There’s a passage in the Old Testament where a woman is unclean for 7 days after the birth of a male child, but unclean for 14 days after a female child. That, to me, that’s clearly UNequal value. [Lev 12:2-5 “she shall be unclean seven days… But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks.”]

Then in the New Testament, Paul says, “the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man.” [1 Cor 11:3 “the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man.”] That shows women are subordinate to men, just like men are subordinate to Christ. That’s not equal value, that’s unequal value.

To me, a true religion would be much more clear about men and women’s equality, and not end up with a long history of male chauvinism.

Well, you have to understand the culture of the times. Religion doesn’t develop in a vacuum. Cultures were male chauvinistic back then.

Yeah, I understand that, but isn’t the purpose of religion, to stand up for good morality, and NOT just go along with bad cultures? The Bible does not present these ideas as the culture’s laws; it presents them as your God’s laws.

So that is one big reason I reject your God. He’s male chauvinistic. And you can pull out all kinds of passages where women are presented in a very positive light, but that does not erase the bad passages. I expect a book of God to NOT be so ambivalent

2. FALSE PROPHECIES

One thing that's always convinced me of the truth of Christianity is prophecy. There are so many prophecies in the Bible that have come true, that have miraculously come true.

Well, that’s what people wrote happened; that doesn’t mean it actually did happen. I find the prophecies are… usually just connections deliberately drawn, by the writer; they’re not miraculous fulfillments. I’ve never found any specific predictions that are impressive.

The Bethlehem prophecy? The Virgin Birth prophecy? Those are very specific prophecies fulfilled!
[Mic 5:2 "...out of you [Bethlehem] shall come forth… the One to be Ruler in Israel.” Jn 7:42 “Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from… the town of Bethlehem?”]

But the Bethlehem prophecy was for a military savior, against the Assyrians. Jesus was not a military savior, and he didn’t have anything to do with the Assyrians.
[Mic 5:5-6 “When the Assyrian comes into our land… They shall waste with the SWORD the land of Assyria… Thus He [the savior] shall deliver us from the Assyrian.”]

And the Virgin Birth prophecy was supposed to be a sign unto King Ahaz. Jesus wasn’t born till 700 years later. He couldn’t have been a sign to King Ahaz back then.
[Isa 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you [King Ahaz!] a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son.” Mt 1:22-23 “So… it might be fulfilled which was spoken… “Behold, the virgin shall be with child.’”]

These are just the New Testament writers purposely drawing connections, and… cavalierly ignoring non-matching elements.

What about Isaiah 53 and all the elements that match Jesus as the predicted suffering servant?
[Isa 53:3 “despised and rejected” – Lk 23:18 “Away with this Man”
Isa 53:12 “was numbered with the transgressors” – Mt 27:38 “two robbers were crucified with Him”]

Yeah, you can pull out a number of matching elements, but I can pull out key non-matching elements… Like verse 10: “He shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days.” But Jesus had no offspring, and he died relatively young. And verse 12 “he shall divide the spoil with the strong.” Jesus had nothing to do with spoils!
[Isa 53:10 “He shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days.” Isa 53:12 “he shall divide the spoil with the strong.”]

What about Psalm 22 and all the specific elements matching Jesus’s crucifixion so many years later?
[Ps 22:7 “All who see me mock me”
Ps 22:18 "And for My clothing they cast lots.”]

Again, you’re pulling out matching elements, but ignoring a major, critical, non-matching element, namely that this savior in Psalm 22 was pleading for his life to be saved [Ps 22:19-21 “O Lord… hasten to help Me!... Save Me from the lion’s mouth!”] That can’t be Jesus; Jesus had the very clear intention of sacrificing his life, of dying… [pause] you know, for our sins, as you say.

What about the psalmist’s description of the person’s hand and feet being pierced? This was long before Crucifixion was a form of execution.
[Ps 22:16 “They pierced My hands and My feet.”]

The Hebrew word there just means mauled, or clawed at; it does not necessarily mean crucifixion or nails being driven into hands and feet.

A writer can find any number of matching elements, but to me, if there are any key non-matching elements, that disproves the prophecy.

Just the other day, I came across an Old Testament prophecy that is blatantly false. Ezekiel predicts the country of Egypt will be uninhabited for 40 years. Ezekiel 29:10-11 Egypt was never uninhabited for 40 years!
[Ezek 29:10-11 “Egypt…will not be inhabited… for forty years.”]

That may be just a form of hyperbole.

Well, I don’t trust people who are always exaggerating.

  3. CONTRADICTIONS to SCIENCE

Another area where I think the Bible disproves itself, is science. Wouldn’t you agree that a true God would not contradict the scientific facts of the world He Himself created? And if He does, then that’s not God talking, but humans talking.

Agreed, agreed… but evolution, for example, is not settled fact.

Well, I think it is, but, let’s not argue evolution; I’m not a scientist. I like to stick to simple known facts of nature that the Bible gets wrong. Like the earth being set on pillars, or a man going 40 days without water, or a man killing 1,000 of the enemy in hand-to-hand combat all by himself… you know, Samson. Or half a million soldiers killed in ONE battle between ancient tribes. That’s just folklore to me.
[Earth set on pillars – 1 Sam 2:8; Ps 75:3
Moses going without water for 40 days – Ex 34:28
Samson killing 1,000 men – Judg 15:15
Half a million soldiers killed in ONE battle – 2 Chr 13:17]

Like the Noah’s Ark story. That wasn’t a real event. Eight people can’t take care of thousands of animals on a giant boat. There’s all kinds of problems there. Like, how did the last two kangaroos get back to Australia?

Hmmm, I don’t know. I suppose I could appeal to the miraculous intervention of God. If God can miraculously produce a giant flood, He can certainly move some animals around.

See, Mark, that’s a weak argument to me. To claim the whole story could have been physically possible, but then to invoke a miracle whenever you need to. It makes so much more sense to me, to see it as just a story.

For you the lesson of the story is how horrible mankind is, everybody deserving to drown, except for one family. For me the lesson is, how horrible your God is. Your biblical God does not show one iota of compassion or concern for the millions of innocent animals he drowns… gratuitously. That is not a God I would ever worship.

Let me ask you this: If the Bible said 2 plus 2 equals 5, would you still believe in it?

But the bible does not say 2 plus 2 equals 5.

I think it does. Check out 1 Chronicles 3:19‑22. It lists seven names and then finishes the sentence by saying, “five in all.” Then it lists five names and finishes that sentence by saying, “six in all.”
[The sons of Zerrubbabel, and the sons of Shemaiah – 1 Chr 3:19‑22]

But the Bible is not meant to be a book of science or math.

Yeah, but if it’s blatantly wrong about science and math, why should I trust it on spiritual matters? I expect so much better of an alleged sacred book.

I see your point. Little things do matter. Reminds me of one of Jesus’s good teachings, that he who is dishonest in little, is also dishonest in much.
[Lk 16:10 “…and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much.”]

Yeah, the Bible should be right about science. Maybe I should become more of a liberal Christian, and not insist on biblical inerrancy.

4. BIGOTRY toward GAYS

What do you think of all this gay rights stuff?

I applaud it. Gays have been discriminated against for so long.

I certainly agree that they should not be discriminated against, but… the Bible does clearly present it as a sin. I have a couple of Christian friends who are actively gay and yet they consider themselves true Christians. But I think they’re just trying to rationalize away what the Bible clearly says, that to lie with someone of the same sex is an abomination.
[Lev 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.”]

I know liberal congregations tend to accept homosexuality, and they claim that what is condemned in the Bible is not a consensual loving relationship between two adults, but ritualized prostitution or male prostitution, child abuse, whatever. But I think that Leviticus passage is very clear: It does not make those qualifications. It says straight out… same gender sex… is an abomination.

Right, I agree, your friends are making excuses and trying to get around what the Bible says. Logically, biblically, something can’t be, quote, an “abomination” to God, and then later on be… OK with God, with no clear explanation.

Of course, I think… the right decision is to reject the Bible… because it is so wrong on this issue. My life’s experience shows me that homosexuality is not at all an indicator of morality, any more than being left-handed is. I might think differently if every gay person I met were a lousy person, but that has definitely not been the case. There’s lots of good… and bad, gay people, just as there are good, and bad, straight people.

I think Christianity’s condemnation of homosexuality, is just plain bigotry.

Let me assure you, Mick… we welcome gays to our church. We treat them with respect and love. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbor.

But if you regard the natural core of their identity, as an “abomination,” how is that respect and love?

We are all sinful. Homosexuality is not a worse sin than other sins. We’re loving them in the sense that we are trying to show them the error of their ways, for their own good.

Well, I think that might be a valid argument if we’re talking about a thief, who is being objectively immoral, harming people. But not a gay person who is loving their partner, not harming them.

I think you’re soft-pedaling all the damage Christianity has caused gay people. Do you know that the suicide rates of gay people have gone down considerably in those states that allow gay marriage?
["Legalizing gay marriage has caused a dramatic drop in LGBT suicide rates" – “The study found that suicide attempt rates dropped 7% among all students and 14% among gay kids after same-sex marriage was legalized in each state. There was no change in states where same-sex marriage wasn't legalized.”]
That’s a very objective measure of the harm your religion has caused.

That’s a good point. And you know, I’ve always felt bad for gay people. It does bother me deeply that my religion condemns them, when my own intuition tells me… that… it IS natural for them. I mean, why in the world would they choose to be gay if it’s so much harder for them? They’re not choosing evil for the sake of evil; they’re accepting what is natural to them.

5. OVERSELLING of PRAYER and FAITH

Do you ever pray?

Uh… contemplative prayer… yeah… thinking about my life… yeah. But not petitionary prayer. I’ve concluded petitionary prayer does not work. From personal experience, and from a major study that was done.
[STEP Study (Benson, 2006), 1,800 heart surgery patients – “Conclusion: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery.”]

I believe in petitionary prayer. I’ve had my prayers answered… many times… though, I have to admit, not always.

Well, that’s just it, does it work any better than chance? I heard an atheist say you’ll get the same results… if you pray to a pumpkin.

Ha ha… No, I find it very helpful to commune with God. And, if I don’t get what I pray for, I look at it through God’s eyes, on a broad scale, over time, that, ultimately, my prayers will be answered.

Yeahhhh, but Jesus promised that your prayers will be answered in this lifetime. He didn’t qualify his statements with the words ultimately, or eventually in heaven.

Jesus, on Prayer

Mk 11:24 “WHATEVER things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them."

Mt 21:22 If you believe, you will receive WHATEVER you ask for in prayer.”

Jn 14:14 “You may ask me for ANYTHING in my name, and I will do it.”]

Well, sometimes the answer to prayer is… no. Or the answer is… wait.

OK, OK, now that is a reasonable expectation for prayer requests, that sometimes you will not get what you want. But that is NOT what Jesus said. He said your prayers will be… not answered, but… granted, GRANTED! Mark 11:24 ”Whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them." Matthew 21:22 “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Hmmm, it does seem like an overstatement.

Yeah, Jesus was constantly overstating. He says you can move an actual mountain, with faith. But you can’t!

Oh, he was speaking figuratively there, he didn’t mean a literal mountain.

No, no, he meant a literal mountain. He doesn’t say A mountain, he says… THIS mountain. Pointing right at it. Look at the context. This is right after Jesus made the fig tree wither, a literal fig tree.
[Mt 21:21-22 “if you have faith,,, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to THIS mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.]

You have to realize, it was very much part of the culture, to speak in exaggerated terms.

I think a culture riddled with exaggerations is morally bankrupt. And a person who constantly exaggerates, is not to be trusted.

With regard to moving mountains and walking on water, I think Jesus was speaking only to his apostles there. He wasn’t speaking to us 2,000 years later.

Hmmm, maybe. But he needs to make that clear, that this is only for you apostles, while I’m around. And he did not make that clear. In John 14:12 he uses the phrase “he who believes in me.”
[Jn 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also.”]
That’s a pretty inclusive phrase. He doesn’t say, “If “you” believe in me, the apostles.

Anyway, I think Jesus was selling a fantasy world, where prayers are granted and God takes care of things. People throughout history have loved that kind of talk. But I think it’s much healthier to live in the real world, and not perceive the world with rose-colored glasses on.

You know that passage where Jesus recommends not worrying, that God feeds the birds? How much more will He take care of you.
[Mt 6:26 “your heavenly father feeds them.”]

Yes… that is a lovely picture.

Yeah, but it is not true. In reality, a huge percentage of birds starve to death.

[New Scientist, Jan, 1969, pp. 121-122, “One third of adult birds and four fifths of their offspring die of starvation every year.”]

  6. JESUS MISTAKEN about END TIMES

I see myself as a traditional Christian, but… I’m not a literalist. I focus less on the Bible than I do on the person of Jesus. He is my cornerstone. He is the person I look to for spiritual knowledge.

I have a different assessment of Jesus. I don’t regard him as a rational, or even a wise man, but… a religious extremist. He constantly overstated things, to the extent that I think a lot of his ideas are really bad.

Like what? What are Jesus’s bad ideas?

Jesus, the religious extremist
Self-castration is noble Mt 19:11‑12
You should forgive endlessly Mt 18:21-22
Remarriage is equivalent to adultery Mk 10:11-12
Blind faith is a virtue Jn 20:29
Non-believers go to Hell Mk 16:16, Jn 3:18

Well, we just talked about his overselling the power of faith and prayer.

Jesus also taught… that… belief is more important than behavior. I strongly disagree with that idea. [Jn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.]

I just read a Christian book where the author says, it is not… good people who go to Heaven…it’s believing people. I think that is… horribly misguided. God has got to be better than a huge cosmic egotist who demands belief in Himself, above all.

I think God cares about what your behavior is. My God loves the good atheist … not the thief on the cross… the groveling thief on the cross, who has spent a lifetime hurting people. My God loves the atheist who has spent a lifetime helping people. Belief is cheap.

Hmmmm…..

Jesus accepted the barbaric Old Testament God, as the true God, as his God. I think that’s a major mistake.

And, here’s a big thing. He was mistaken about the end of the world. He thought it would end in his generation. And he was flat wrong. And that’s what religious extremists tend to do; they predict the end of the world, some imminent great reckoning. I say… you cannot be wrong about something so important as the end of the world, and still be a true Son of God.

Jesus predicted the end, yes, but he was talking about the end for the generation that ultimately sees the end.

But what is the point of saying that!? To say that some people in the far future will not die till the end comes. That’s… meaningless.

It makes no sense for Jesus to tell the anxious apostles about some generation 2,000 years in the future, without TELLING them that he is talking about 2,000 years in the future!
[Mk 13:30 "THIS generation shall not pass, till ALL things be done.”
Mk 9:1 “Assuredly, I say to you that there are SOME STANDING HERE who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”]

His prediction of the End only makes sense if he is saying that some of the apostles, some of you, quote, “standing here,” will not die before the end comes. That’s the only way his words make sense.

The whole thrust of the New Testament is the imminence of Judgment Day. There are “soon” passages all over the place. And 2,000 years in the future is not soon!

“SOON” Passages
1 Cor 7:29 “the time is short”
Rev 1:3 “for the time is near”
Rev 22:10 “the time is at hand”
1 Pet 4:7 “the end of all things is at hand”
Heb 1:2 “in these last days”

Yeah, I wish things were more clear.

Hah, well, it’s clear to me… that the end did not happen… and people are just making excuses.

7. PRIMITIVE THEOLOGY

But this is a fallen world. There’s so much evil. We needed a savior. We need someone to pay for our sins, to reconcile us with God. And Jesus, as God, was the only person who could do that. He led a perfect life. It was a powerful demonstration of his love for us, that he would be willing to be horribly crucified… for us.

Uhh… I do agree that our world is in many ways, a fallen world, but, it is not so thoroughly evil as you Christians paint it. There are lots of good people in the world also, doing good things. You know, Doctors without Borders comes to mind… or how about just average parents caring for and loving their kids?

But the big thing about your theology… is that it’s fundamentally immoral. It’s based on third party guilt, in Adam, and third party redemption, in Jesus. I think that idea is immoral. I think everyone is responsible for their own behavior, good or bad. Jesus cannot take the moral responsibility for other people’s behavior. That’s the very definition of injustice. Jesus cannot die for OUR sins.

Not only that, but your whole theology, if you think about it, is based on human sacrifice. Jesus being sacrificed, to make things right with God. That is a primitive and horribly misguided idea. Even the Old Testament practice of sacrificing animals, to appease God, is to me, just plain stupid, primitive… and unkind.

But other than Jesus’s sacrifice, the Bible clearly condemns human sacrifice.
[Dt 18:10 "... shall not [make]… his son or his daughter pass through the fire.”]

No, it doesn’t, well, in one place, yes, it does, but in other places. it commands it. Killing first-born sons.

Really? Where?

Yeah, I have a list of the quotes right here.

[Exod 22:29-30 “The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me. LIKEWISE you shall do with your oxen and your sheep.”

Num 31:36-40 “The donkeys were thirty thousand five hundred, of which the Lord’s tribute was sixty-one. The persons were sixteen thousand, of which the Lord’s tribute was thirty-two PERSONS.

2 Sam 21:1‑14 – Seven people are sacrificed to God; the famine ends.]

  8. The BIBLE CONTRADICTING ITSELF

A divinely inspired book shouldn’t be contradicting itself.

I find that there are decent resolutions to all these alleged contradictions.

For example, atheists will claim the resurrection accounts among the four gospels contradict each other. One gospel had Mary arriving by herself at the tomb in the morning, but another claims it was Mary AND others with her. Well, a reasonable solution is that one writer just simplified his narration by mentioning only Mary. He doesn’t have to fill out al the details. And a key point is that he did not say it was ONLY Mary. If he said only Mary, that she came by herself, then yeah, that would be a contradiction.

So you admit that if it said ONLY Mary, it would be a contradiction? OK, then how about this? One passage in the Bible says that David committed only one sin all his life, the Bathsheba episode, but another passage claims he committed another serious sin in taking a census against God’s wishes. The concept of only is there. That is a rock-solid contradiction. David can’t have committed only one sin all his life but also committed another major sin.
[1 Kg 15:5 "David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of [Bathsheba]"
2 Sam 24:10 "I have sinned greatly in what I have done [taking a census]."]

Hmmm. I’ve have to look at that.

There’s also broad contradictions. Like, will not a jot or tittle of the law be changed, or has Jesus abolished the old law?
[Mt 5:18 "…till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will be no means pass from the law…” But, Eph 2:15 "He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances."]

Are we saved by faith alone, or are works necessary? Is guilt inherited, or not? Can women be ordained or not? All kinds of stuff, where you can find passages supporting contradictory positions.

I think if the Bible were trustworthy and clear, there would not be hundreds of differing denominations. You’ve got Catholics, and Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox. You’ve got liberal churches versus conservative churches. You’ve got Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists, and on and on. And everybody thinks they’re right. To me, a book that is so unclear and leads to so much conflict, is not trustworthy.

9. GOD-DIRECTED IMMORALITIES

I think your God is deeply immoral. He orders genocides in the Old Testament. He wants entire tribes to be wiped out. Without mercy.

But those tribes in the Old Testament, like the Canaanites, they had to be wiped out; they were a serious threat to the existence of the Hebrew nation.

But it was the Hebrews who went into their land and attacked them. The Hebrews were the aggressors. This idea that God made a sacred promise to the Hebrews that this would be their land, is such baloney. It’s just greedy people wanting other people’s land, and claiming God said it was theirs. This is what’s gone on throughout history. Even our own country, you know, Manifest Destiny, the claim that God intended this land for the white people.

I’ll give you two very good reasons why I do not believe God told the Hebrews to take other people’s land. One, if for some reason God really wanted the Hebrews to have other people’s land, He would not have said… kill them all, including the women and children, and…… the animals. There is no valid reason to kill the animals… that is HUMAN barbarism… this is not God.
[1 Sam 15:3 "put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep."]

And the second reason is that the Hebrews killed and took over the land of… the Laish, who were, by the Bible’s own description, NOT a threat to the Hebrews. They were a peaceful tribe, and the Hebrews just went in, killed them, and took their land.

Well, I don’t know about that.

Read it yourself. That’s what you Christians do; you automatically focus on the good stuff and just ignore the bad stuff.
[Judg 18:1-28 "So they... went to Laish, to a people quiet and secure; and they struck them with the edge of the sword and burned the city… For God has given it into your hands”]

Your God condones slavery.

But slavery back then was not like slavery was in this country. It was mostly indentured servitude.

Ah… you used a key word there – "mostly." Yes, mostly indentured servitude, for the Hebrews slaves of Hebrew masters. They could work off their debt. But not the foreigners. The foreigners were hard-core slaves, they were permanent slaves. The Bible refers to them as “property,” to be passed on to the masters’ offspring.
[Lev 25:44-46 “…you may buy male and female slaves… you may buy the children… and they shall become your PROPERTY… they shall be your permanent slaves.”]

And they could be beaten severely. A person who is allowed to be beaten severely, is not an indentured servant, that is a hard-core slavery.
[Ex 21:20-21 “And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.”]

Hmmm, I’m starting to see your point about selecting passages to focus on. I’m looking at Galatians 3:28, where it says we’re all equal in the sight of God.
[Gal 3:28 “…for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”]

I’ve always regarded that passage as an affirmation of God’s true attitude. But you’re right, once the Bible refers to humans as permanent property of other humans, that is disturbing.

But… you also have to understand the cultural context of the time.

No, I don’t… I don’t. Cultural context is irrelevant. These laws are not presented as the laws of the culture, they’re presented as the laws of your God. A true God should transcend culture; He shouldn’t be accommodating his values to bad cultures, like your God does.

And, of c-o-u-r-s-e, cultural context does a lot to explain slavery, but cultural context does not… justify your God condoning it. That is the point. The point that Christians always try to obscure.

I think one of the strongest passages disproving the Bible, is Deuteronomy 13:6-10. Where God wants apostates brutally killed. Stoned to death.
[Dt 13:6-10 “you shall surely kill him… you shall stone him with stones until he dies.”]

Well, that was in the Old Testament. We’re under the New Covenant now.

So, you’re saying it was OK to do that under the Old Covenant? I thought God’s words didn’t change….
[Crickets – Isa 40:8 “But the word of our God stands forever.”
Ps 33:11 “The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.”]

Well, I’m guessing the existence of the Hebrew nation was at stake at the time.

Even if I grant that it was, and if there were a valid reason to kill apostates, that is no reason to kill them… without mercy. Stoning is a horrible way to go; it’s a very drawn out, brutal process. That is my proof that this is not God talking here; God wouldn’t be so unnecessarily cruel. Only religious extremists are that cruel.

  10. The OBSCENE CONCEPT of HELL

Your religion has a hell, a place or state of eternal conscious torment. How in the world do you think that is fair and loving?

Well, we’re taught to respond that it is our free-will choice. That God does not put us there; we put ourselves there. But… I’ve been thinking about that. So what if it’s a free-will choice. That’s NOT the point; the extreme cruelty of the punishment, is the point.

Exactly. Exactly. Bringing up free will is just a dodge. To me, it’s abundantly clear, what a… deranged idea hell is. And it… just appalls me that Christians think that a God who has a Hell, is a loving and just God. That is a God of HATE, not love….

And what should God do about Hitler? Just let things slide?

No, punish him, severely, I’m fine with that. He deserves it. But, to torture him forever, without end, is just pointlessly cruel. And, to torture millions of non-Christians forever, just for not BELIEVING, that is obscenely cruel.

There are certain biblical passages, which suggest Hell is not eternal conscious torment, but… simply, annihilation, a cessation of being. And you can even find passages that suggest universalism, that everyone gets reconciled to God, eventually, in the end.

[Eternal conscious torment – Rev 20:10 “And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Annihilation – Ps 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… into smoke they shall vanish away.”

Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) – Lk 3:6 “And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”]

Right. But those interpretations are mutually exclusive. We can’t be tortured forever, if we’re annihilated, or if we are all reconciled to God eventually! I can’t trust such a muddled book….

Well, Mick, I can see that you have given serious thought to all these things. I respect your position. And you’ve given me some things to think about.

I appreciate your listening to what I had to say. And…as much as I think your Christian worldview does not hold water.. intellectually… IF, for you, emotionally, it’s a profound…truth, which works well for you, I don’t expect you to give it up. Just don’t expect me to change MY mind. Ha ha.

I think the reasons I gave, are the very same reasons many other people have left Christianity.

I came across a religious joke the other day. I thought it was pretty funny. I hope you don’t find this offensive: After the crucifixion, the apostles are walking through Jerusalem, and suddenly they see Jesus. And they say, “My Lord, it’s you, you’ve risen from the dead!” And Jesus says, “Oh, no, no, no. That’s not what happened. No, what happened was I couldn’t carry the cross anymore, so they got this guy Simon to carry it for me. And the next thing I knew, they crucified HIM! So I just kind of snuck out of there, real quiet like.” Ha, ha, ha, ha.